I recently picked up a P35 and need some help finding out when it was made. As you can see from the pictures it isn't exactly a collectors item with the replacement grips, broken take down lever, and reblued but it was cheap and it fills a hole in my collection. I have been looking on the internet to try and find out when it was made but I haven't had any luck. I was wondering if anyone knew what color grips would be correct for this gun. Also the serial number is a little confusing to me. I cannot tell if it supposed to be H0 (zero) or HO (letter O).
It is all matching, non import marked, a 3 lever and it does not have a cut out for a stock. Thanks for any information. Brad, Lapin's book suggests that a Polish Vis (also known as a P35(p) or 'Radom') with a serial number prefix of 'H' was made in 1942.
The pistols made for the Germans used the same serial numbering system used by other manufacturers. The first pistol manufactured were numbered from 01 to 9999.The next pistol would bear the number 01a,then 02a and so forth until 9999a was reached. At this point the numbers would recommence at 01b and proceed thru the alphabet.
In this system the letters I,O,Q,V,X and Y were not used.IMO, In spite of the re-blue your pistol seems to be a decent example.Finding a replacement take down lever and better grips would improve it even more. Hope this helped.
Thanks for the help so far guys. I think part of my confusion is from dealing with K98's and trying to think along those lines as far as the serial number is concerned.
I didn't realize that they would still include the number zero even if it was not needed. Also I'm used to the letter block coming after the serial number. So is it safe to assume black grips are the proper ones?
Are these considered large or small grip screws? If I do find some correct ones, I'll let you know Curly. Last edited by Brad70; at 08:25 PM.
The photographs on the left are of the front and back of the Radom VIS 35 pistol, while the pictures on the right show the top and bottom of the sidearm. The pistol is shown with the magazine installed in each of these photographs.
The full serial number on this pistol is located on the right side of the frame above the trigger and on the underside of the slide alongside the breech block. The serial number minus the letter prefix is found on the right side of the slide directly in front of the angled slide serrations and on the barrel being visible through the ejection port. The last three digits of the serial number is found on the left side of the barrel lug. The barrel lug has also been stamped with the Waffenamt 623 or Weapons Office inspectors stamp 623. The Waffenamt 623 or WaA 623 stamp was issued to the weapons inspector at the weapons factory located in Radom, Poland and to the Steyr plant located in Austria, which is where this barrel was probably manufactured. The magazine has been etched(not stamped) with the serial number minus the letter prefix. The number is located on the back of the magazine and near the bottom.
This etched number is another reason why I believe that this VIS 35 is a Russian captured piece. Please see the text at the bottom of this page for more information. The photograph on the left is a close up the markings that are found on the left side of this sidearm. The inscription on the slide reads as follows, 'F.B. RADOM VIS Mod. Nr.15567' and then underneath that is 'P.35(p)'.
This marking indicates Fabryka Broni(weapons factory) located at Radom, Poland. The letters VIS are Latin meaning force. The next part of this inscription identifies the pistol as the Model 35 which has the patent number 15567.
The bottom line of this slide marking is the German designation for the firearm which indicates Pistole 35(p), the suffix p stands for polnisch which translates to Polish. The slide has also been stamped with two different Waffenamts or Weapon Office stamps and with the German military test proof mark which is a Nazi eagle holding a swastika in a circle. The Waffenamt 623 or WaA 623 stamp was issued to the weapons inspector at the weapons factory located in Radom, Poland and to the Steyr plant located in Austria.
The Waffenamt 77 stamp was issued to lyo which is a German code for Kromolowski & Sohne which was located in Radom, Poland and to the Steyr plant located in Austria. The purpose of the Waffenamt stamps was to prove that each firearm and its components met the quality standards set forth by the Heereswaffenamt or Army Weapons Office. In order to carry this out, inspectors were assigned to individual firms for large corporations or to a specific area if there were several smaller manufacturers.
These inspectors and their Waffenamt or WaA for short were responsible to the Heereswaffenamt rather than the manufacturer to which they were assigned. Each weapons office can be correctly identified by the individual acceptance stamp they used. Mystery marking.
At the top of the slide in the picture at the left there is a square with the number 20 inside and another square next to it with the number 18 inside. As of this writing, I do not know what these two marks indicate. The picture on the right is one of them things that collectors have come to know very well. This is an import stamp that is required to be on all firearms that are imported into the U.S.
At times, the importer does a wonderful job of hiding this required stamp, but as can be seen here the importer placed the stamp right on the trigger guard. I have seen cases where this stamping was placed in an out of the way area such as under the grips or in very tiny fine print on the bottom of the pistol where an inserted magazine would conceal it. With this importers mark, we now know that this Radom came in to the U.S. Some time after the late 1980's. The first line of this import stamp reads as follows, C.I.A.
And the line below it reads, Poland 9mm. This two line import marking is nearly exactly what the law calls for except it would have been nice if the importer would have hid this stamp under the grips rather then stamping it on the trigger guard. The first line identifies the importer as Century Arms Incorporated, and tells us that they are located in Saint Albans, Vermont which is in the United States.
The second line of this stamp identifies the caliber of the firearm and where it was made. This second line tells us that the caliber is 9mm Parabellum and that the pistol was manufactured in Poland. The importer, Century Arms Inc. Is still in business today and offers collectors a wide variety of firearms from around the world to choose from. The import law that is mentioned above can be referenced by viewing the gun control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618 and under Subpart F-Conduct of Business sub-section 178.92 (a)(1) Firearms.
The photograph on the left is a picture of the underside of the grips found on this Radom VIS 35 pistol, while the picture on the right is of the front of the grips. While this pistol does not have the famous Russian 'X' mark found on most of the Russian captured weapons, the finish on this Radom appears very similar to the other Russian captured and refinished weapons I have examined. The Russian 'X' mark can be seen on this that is in the collection. Sadly, when the Russians captured these weapons, and most likely some time after the war, they dis-assembled and refinished them. On the bright side, I have noticed that when it came to pistols, the Russians would keep all of the numbered parts to a particular pistol together. The practice of keeping the firearm with its original parts did not always follow suit with other firearms that were captured, such is the case with the German K98k rifle. The Russians dis-assembled thousands of captured K98k rifles, and it seems to many collectors that they tossed all of these rifle parts in a large bluing tank together.
Then when it came time to put the rifles back together again, they grabbed the needed part and gave no concern as to which weapon it was on originally. As long as the part fit and would function they were happy. On most of the Russian captured and rebuilt K98k rifles, the Russians would either grind away completely the original serial number on the smaller parts or they would make a lite etching across the serial number. This lite etching was usually in the form of a strait line across the middle of the serial number leaving the original serial number easily readable in most cases. The Russians would then etch the serial number of the receiver onto these smaller parts, in a way making them matching again.
For your protection, we may require that you authenticate your identity before we provide you with any information. Orlando Avenue, Suite 200 Winter Park, FL 32789 You may also ask for a summary of the information that we have retained, how we have used it, and to whom it has been disclosed. Campion allante owners manual.
The magazine on this pistol has an etched serial number on it. A Russian capture of a weapon does add a unique history to the firearm, but at the same time it does hurt its monetary value to collectors. Still, any Radom VIS 35 pistol collection would not be complete without one of these Russian captured pieces in it. Resource: German Handguns by Ian Hogg German small arms markings by Joachim Gortz & Don Bryans The standard directory of proof marks by Gerhard Wirnsberger Official guide to gunmarks by Robert Balderson Mauser military rifle markings by Terence Lapin Handbook of military rifle marks 1866-1950 by Richard Hoffman & Noel Schott History Writ in Steel by Donald Maus.
This is a late-war production (c. 1944-1945) Radom pistol, correct?
My recollection is that KM property markings ceased around 1941, so even if this pistol were procured by the KM, I would not expect it to have KM property markings applied at such a late date in the war. Sorry the Radom that is shown here is not a late war production.
It looks more like a 1940 or 1941. I'm not 100% convinced that a real KM.
The Radom banner is not sharp and crisp. I do not have such a sloppy Radom banner on any of my Radoms looks un even. Far to many were KM marked that in the late 70-80's.
I remember a fellow at a gun show had 15 so called KM Radoms not one was original. About 90% of all oroigianl KM went down wth the ship/subs Look at the crisp banner posted, and a K block late war issued.
Diffenitly a early German P35(p). If I read the marking on the trigger guard correctly and that's a 'M' under the eagle then its a Kreigsmarine issue. Most Kreigsmarine stamped guns are on the bottom of the Atlantic! I don't have my references handy (I'm away from home as usual) but will check when I get home. Is there anyone here that has a copy of 'Axis Pistols of WWII'? (red hard bound cover). There are some excellent photos of the P35(p) in there along with production runs, variants, etc.
I've got a later wartime model without the take down lever on the frame. Verry interesting Radom you have there!
OK, I'm back home with my reference book 'AXIS PISTOLS' by Jan C. Still pg 66 ref the VIS M1935 (RADOM) (P.35p) The Eagle proof on the trigger guard is not a Kreigsmarine (E/sw/M) but a German commerical proof (E/N). The slide markings indicate a later production late Grade II subvariation 2 (late) or early Grade III ('F.B. RADOM VIS Mod. 15567' there's is no Polish eagle (early models) nor Grade I -P.35(p) marking at end. Frame is not cut for the stock cut which was did away with Grade I subvariation 3 (late).
It does have the take down latch. Here's the info for the last two grades Grade II Stock slot eliminated; military-blue finish; stamped left slide legend 'F.B. RADOM VIS Mod. 15567 P.35(p)'; both E/WaA77 or E/77 and E/623 acceptence stamp; barrel-recoil spring-guide in the white; Est prod 144,000 Grade II Subvariation 2: Wihout 'P.35(p)' on slide legend and at about serial number NO1 change to late E/77 acceptance stamp; the following changes also occur: elimination of finger clearance cuts; red, brown or black plastic or checkered wood grips; riveted trigger assembly; large grip screws and hollow head pins; serial range M8400 to Z2000. Est prod 73,600 Grade III: Take down latch eliminated; slide legend 'F.B.
RADOM VIS Mod. 15567'; large grip screws; red, brown or black plastic or checkered wood grips; riveted trigger assembly; hollow head pins; hammer modified with a notch to hold slide open for disassembly; rough fit and machining with military-blue or phosphate finish; change to one piece recoil guide at about J serial block; serial rane Z2000 to K9150. Est prod 107,000 As far as the serial number goes its a mystrey. Serial numbers are in blocks of 10,000 with alphabetic prefix (there are no I, O, Q V, X or Y blocks known) Total production Poles: 18,000 German Army 313,000 Kreigsmarine 1,000 with E/M and N property number. Originally Posted By CombatDiver: OK, I'm back home with my reference book 'AXIS PISTOLS' by Jan C.
Still pg 66 ref the VIS M1935 (RADOM) (P.35p) The Eagle proof on the trigger guard is not a Kreigsmarine (E/sw/M) but a German commerical proof (E/N). The slide markings indicate a later production late Grade II subvariation 2 (late) or early Grade III ('F.B. RADOM VIS Mod. 15567' there's is no Polish eagle (early models) nor Grade I -P.35(p) marking at end.
Frame is not cut for the stock cut which was did away with Grade I subvariation 3 (late). It does have the take down latch. Here's the info for the last two grades Grade II Stock slot eliminated; military-blue finish; stamped left slide legend 'F.B. RADOM VIS Mod. 15567 P.35(p)'; both E/WaA77 or E/77 and E/623 acceptence stamp; barrel-recoil spring-guide in the white; Est prod 144,000 Grade II Subvariation 2: Wihout 'P.35(p)' on slide legend and at about serial number NO1 change to late E/77 acceptance stamp; the following changes also occur: elimination of finger clearance cuts; red, brown or black plastic or checkered wood grips; riveted trigger assembly; large grip screws and hollow head pins; serial range M8400 to Z2000.
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Est prod 73,600 Grade III: Take down latch eliminated; slide legend 'F.B. RADOM VIS Mod.
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15567'; large grip screws; red, brown or black plastic or checkered wood grips; riveted trigger assembly; hollow head pins; hammer modified with a notch to hold slide open for disassembly; rough fit and machining with military-blue or phosphate finish; change to one piece recoil guide at about J serial block; serial rane Z2000 to K9150. Est prod 107,000 As far as the serial number goes its a mystrey. Serial numbers are in blocks of 10,000 with alphabetic prefix (there are no I, O, Q V, X or Y blocks known) Total production Poles: 18,000 German Army 313,000 Kreigsmarine 1,000 with E/M and N property number. CD Thanks for the info. This gun DOES have the stock slot though. Check this thread out for more info if your interested - http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=17812. Polishmike, Thanks for the link.
Radom Vis 35 Value
I do believe you have a unique factory Radom. The frame appears to be an earlier model perhaps left in the white at the factory then mated to a later slide (or perhaps the slide was never stamped at the time) and given later slide engraving with a mid wartime finish. The #12 stampings would indicate limited test production???? So, in all this rambling early test Polish pistol in white give mid wartime slide markings and finish. Still uncertain as to lack of German Army Acceptence marks?
(FYI the Radom factory was captured by the Germans on 12 Sep 39) CD.
P.35(p) Radom VIS M1935 Radom P.35(p) -The Radom was one of the favourites of the German troops. It was produced up to end of war The last ones (the Polish production site was occupied by the Russians) were produced in Steyr, Austria. Technical data: Caliber: 9 mm Para Function: Browning 2nd variation; hammer outside; slide catch Barrel length: ca. Mm Weight: ca. G Magazine capacity: Schuss Production data: Company: Fybryka Broni w Radomiu Steyr-Werke Location: Radom Steyr Period: 1939 - 1945 Amount: 313,000 pieces Serial numbers: 001 - 49400 Polish weapons A001 - Z10000 German 1st alphabet-series A001 - K9150 German 2nd alphabet-series The Radom produced by the Germans is split in 3 major variations (grades), according finish, existing of stock slut and the presence of the demounting lever. Grade I (subvariation 3: highpolish-finish; stock slut; with stamped P.35(p) at the slide legend; approx. 47,000 pcs.) Characteristics: Legend: RADOM VIS Mod.
Radom P35 Parts
15567 'P.35(p)' Finish: highpolish-finish; blued Grips: black chequered Bakelit grips on left side FB logo on right side VIS logo Serial number: 4-digit number with prefix on right frame 4-digit number with prefix inside slide 3-digit number on barrel Acceptance stamp: E/77 left on slide E/77 left on frame E/77 right on frame E/77 right on barrel E/623 left on slide (final acceptance at Steyr) E/189 on mag base Test proof stamp: E HK left on slide E HK left on barrel Grade II (subvariation 1: military-finish; no stock slut; with P.35(p) at the slide legend; approx. 70,400 pcs.) Characteristics: Legend: RADOM VIS Mod. 15567 'P.35(p)' Finish: military-finish; blued Grips: black chequered Bakelit grips on left side FB logo on right side VIS logo Serial number: 4-digit number with prefix on right frame 4-digit number with prefix inside slide 3-digit number on barrel Acceptance stamp: E/77 left on slide E/77 left on frame E/77 right on frame E/77 right on barrel E/623 left on slide (final acceptance at Steyr) E/189 on mag base Test proof stamp: E HK left on slide E HK left on barrel Grade II (subvariation 2: military-finish; no stock slut; no P.35(p) at the slide legend; approx. 73,600 pcs.) Characteristics: Legend: RADOM VIS Mod.
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